Attorney Jaime Michelle Cain, Esq. of Boylan Code join Host Steve Wallace and Celena Muzic of The Wallace Law Group, PL. Jaime Michelle Cain is a New York Real Estate Attorney.
Topics Discussed Include:
How to be a Successful Real Estate Investor in Upstate New York
Innovative Marketing Techniques for Attorneys
Advice on How To Balance Family and Professional Life for Attorneys
Creative Structure of Real Estate Transactions
State of Multifamily Rent Collection in New York
Pop Culture Banter
let's get started. So Jamie, could you tell us where you grew up and, know, what, what led you to becoming an attorney? Sure. so I grew up in a town talk. It, it is looking at on long Island. you ever heard Stony Brook university it's right in that general vicinity on the North shore Island, Ireland. why did I become an attorney? I, as a little kid, I remember arguing with my mom. she used to say something and not really. And, you know, she said to, to the two today, she will say to me, Oh, it's a sky blue shade of purple. And she's like, you used to test me and had the last say every last thing that you did. so it kind of just stuck with me that, I should go into litigation, and, and do that for a living and be a lawyer and all the glamour that I thought went with it, until I got to undergrad and I realized. I could not talk in front of anybody. I would freeze and I couldn't speak and I would shake. And then I, what I was doing with my career. So, I forced myself to get over that. And here we are, as, as a litigator. That's awesome. my mom is a speech therapist, and so I used to have a voice that had like a very, very high octane. So I actually got training on how to speak and deliver presentations and speaking in the courtroom. so then I would be better suited for the career that I had. Chosen since I was seven is what my mom tells me. That's excellent. So, addition to your training and your realization at an early age, being an attorney, what type of extracurricular activities did you do during school? And could you tell us a little bit more about some hobbies that you have now? Sure. so growing up, I was, avid into sports, whether it was watching sports with my father or, playing sports, I played competitive softball and soccer and, So I was always involved in something. I was on travel teams, traveling all over for softball. so that, that really growing up was what I remember watching golf on every Sunday with my dad for hours at a time thinking it was the worst thing in the world. Now, looking ahead, that is probably my most fun pastime of recent. I love the game of golf. I love being able to go and play with clients. and it's a new resource for me. some of my other hobbies though include planning. I love event planning and traveling. I think the whole part leading up to a vacation is oftentimes more fun than me. So that's definite hobby that I have. Hi. Hi, Jamie, just to add to Steven's original question, I wanted to ask, why did you go into real estate law? Just because being a fellow new Yorker, when I think lawyers. I think criminal law for some reason. Yeah. I did not intend to do real estate. So I actually started at another larger law firm. when I got out of law school and I was actually litigating, things in the commercial realm. So things like, Construction law and roofing issues and, disputes, revolving around real estate. So a lot of the times we would get things where family owners owned a piece of property in a big city area, and they would fight over who had the rights to it, or, disputes with a neighbor. So I was doing a lot of that. when I had my second child and I was working hours that I didn't necessarily have the aptitude to continue with because I, at that point had a 15 month old and a newborn. I thought about moving firms and what drew me. Here to boil in was I w I really wanted to do something. I had gained a large practice with landlord tenant. I'm working for exclusively one real estate investor in Rochester who had a very large practice. Yes. And I wanted to expand on that and to create something for investors. So something that would dive down and be soup to nuts, everything where. If someone was investing in property in this area, I could fulfill that need need, whether it be the acquisition of the property, the lease of the property, the property management role, making sure, they were, set with employee relations and understanding the obligations to the employee. and then obviously if there was termination or business succession or a business dispute, kind of taking all of that into a concept and creating this investor niche. And, when I came to them with that idea, yeah, they were very receptive to it. And so I got put in our real estate department, and then started growing on that. Kind of kind of a one stop shop for real estate investors, so to speak. Yeah, really something that was novel. I like to think outside the box and it was there was a need for it because Rochester, as you know, steep, upstate New York in general, it's very attractive to investors, especially from out of the area because of the real estate market. You can get some really nice. Properties here and the cost isn't crazy. And the rents are pretty healthy in terms of being able to, have a model where you purchase, improve, take the, and buy again. And that's kind of what I mean, I've been doing for the last five years. Yeah. So, so Lena and I are both in the I in the past and Selena currently, we're both real estate investors. So if you could give us some advice on, you know, some, some tips of the trade on how to be a successful real estate investor, because your practice revolves around representing real estate investors. We're all ears for taking notes. Then the number one lesson that I can take away for clients is to wisely. So know the area that you're in and, and this is where I'm talking about the deep dive. A lot of the times, you know, lawyers are thought of as you know, just that the henchmen at the end of it, what I try and tell my client is no, we are counselors. You need to talk to me through the whole process so that you understand the risks of what you're trying to do when you're buying a property. So a lot of the times it's looking first of all at the area. So where are you looking? What kind of neighborhood it is? what kind of rents are supportive in that neighborhood? You're not going to come in and you're not going to put in a ton of money to raise the rents if the neighborhood doesn't call for it. So looking at that, but moreover for our area purposes, looking at what courts would service. That property so that if something goes wrong, you can know what to expect and how fast you can get your property, the backward, or if that's a problem. Our city court up here is really tough and very heavily in the favor of the tenants. So knowing that you're going to be walking into that court, sometimes couldn't be a deterrent for purchasing property. If you're not going to intend to be a hands on landlord, because then you're going to have to buy it. You know, buy into a management property, especially if you're an out of town. Bester, also looking at the assessed value of a property. I have gotten clients that I see purchase contracts for the assessed value is way below their purchase price. And knowing that eventually that's going to catch up on taxes. And does this make sense to purchase this property? When no in Rochester are we're on a four year cycle for, The assessment and knowing if you're in year three and you're purchasing this property way out of whack, all of a sudden you think you're getting a good deal and your taxes go crazy and you have to think about that. So structure of the deal would be all of that. is it appropriate to buy the actual property or maybe should you look to buy the membership interest of the company that owns that property? Which then is just transfer of the actual company itself and not the real estate, even though the real estate becomes an ancillary part of that, would that trigger a reassessment of the real estate taxes? If you've purchased the membership, it doesn't in New York right now. That's one of the loopholes that's. there and used, especially when you see again, those assessed values being really low and a purchase price being sometimes you'll see assess value at 1.2 million and I've got it. Just price that's 4.5. It doesn't make sense to invest in that as just a real estate deal. So we will look to. You have a membership purchase, transfer in that instance in a lot of cases where we create a new LLC, for warranty and liability purposes. but they will actually only file that. The notice in New York that gets filed up at the state level. It doesn't go to the County. So it doesn't trigger the assessment right away. It eventually catches up, but it doesn't right away. And so, that, that helps people be able to put money back into the property for a short term purpose. Yeah. And that's certainly a reason to have an experienced New York real estate lawyer, like yourself to assist on a transaction because that transaction structure that you just described is not something you can pick up a book and figure out you definitely there's a lot of challenging aspects of that transaction. Selena, did you have another question? Yeah. I mean, that is so interesting. I never would have thought. Upstate New York, just because again, I'm an inner city grow, grew up in, in the lower East side. And honestly, I got my first property because of my parents at a very young age, but I knew absolutely nothing or what to do with it. I just, I basically lived there and paid rent to my parents and they took care of everything else. Yeah, and it is trying to figure out and in groups like I'm trying to run in terms of networking opportunities to educate people as to there's other structures or there's other areas. you know, we see Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo, Albany. there are so many people from New York city or from California, and we see a lot of doctors in California. Who've never even been to Rochester, but are investing in property because the deals better. So our, real estate market's really healthy, still, even in a post COVID or during COVID world. and, and that's part of the education process with people like you would saying, Hey, you know, New York city super expensive, and there's a lot of, There's a lot of ancillary things that go into, you know, something in the city itself, because you have a whole nother layer of laws with the city, having their own laws that, you know, we don't have that up here. It might be an attraction, the option. And right now it would be better for you because you cannot find a rental property upstate to rent because of COVID because everybody from Manhattan and the fibers are up here vacationing. Yeah, the other, the other thing that's really attractive for the upstate upstate New York market is that a lot of areas are college towns. Like I grew up in Syracuse as you see by my orange shirt and we're fellow orange. Jamie. And so, could you talk a little bit, do you have investors that are looking and tailoring housing first for students? Absolutely. so you are 100% correct? It's a very lucrative market. Yeah, a lot of the times there's that safety net too, because you have a parent as a guarantor. So, clients will actually like that. You know, that if you buy around, the actual schools that your property is almost always going to be rented. And I think there's a little bit about, you know, college students. Do they really care about maintenance requests? I mean, unless something's completely not working, you're not going to have this scenario where, you're, you're constantly going to be maybe bothered by the tenant for things to be repaired or fixed. Most of the time of college students just want to move in and they don't really care what it looks like. It's comfort, away from the dorms and it's. Proximity to campus. So those are definitely, attractive properties. And what I see is once a client buys into a certain area, oftentimes you'll see them try and take the blocks. So they'll own, the block of, that school area so that they may own 10 in a row. And it becomes very easy for them to manage and collect rents and oversee what's going on in the area. Yeah, I can just tell you, because I visit, the Syracuse university campus, about a year ago and growing up, there were a lot of individual homeowners that in upstate New York, there's a lot of single family and three family homes. And sometimes they basically, what they'll do is they'll chop up every floor of the home and set up a separate entrance and then that's it, that's a way that they're able to derive revenue. And then also they'll oftentimes, and if it's tailored for a student market, They'll charge per room. And so what I've seen though, and if you could shed a little bit of light, is that model, there's actually a lot of institutional money that's been, that's been put on the Syracuse university campus. There's some luxury housing on Marshall street and some of the other vicinity, like there are some areas that are kind of growing up that were off the beaten path of the university and those, the university housing areas expanded. So can you, do you have any ambassadors that are like some institutional great investors that are, I've seen some luxury housing on campus? Yeah. I, myself, there's a couple of companies I work with. I advise on student housing in terms of fair housing, but for, for myself, I don't have, clients that own on the campus, but I can tell you, I lived on the corner of Comstock right across from the, Tennis courts as you were going up to like day in and Flint. And so even when I was there, I had three roommates, it was granite countertops, very, yeah, Italian living and the cost. Wasn't insane. And if you think about how much you pay for dorms, it's something that is attractive to students. And I don't think that. investors have to put that much money into a property to make it something that's attractive to students. Again, I think that, there's a, the market obviously for luxury and grad students might prefer that. But I have seen my friends, especially when I was there live in places that were, you know, just basic, And, and they had parties there and they enjoyed it and it wasn't something that, it or to a student to have this very high end. So I think there's a good mix on the campus of both, depending on what you're looking for, depending on what your price point and, you know, some, I remember friends of mine that wanted, you know, 10 plus guys to live in one house. And so it was nice. Houses that are, you know, complete, like you described three story houses. there were many people that were takers on that to get out of campus housing itself. Yeah, we rented after college, between college and law school, I took a year off and we rented on Euclid and I think we paid $300 a room. And it was, it was a pretty dumpy place, but very nice proximity to the campus and everything like that. So we did make it work. So you brought up a lot of great points and then I'm going to take this question and I'm gonna let my friend Selena take two questions, cause I don't want to monopolize the conversation. So we met on LinkedIn and we, even though we're both fellow alumni, we never met before. And one of the things that really struck me and is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was you have some very innovative marketing techniques and one of the things, that you are currently doing in light of the coven and have a lot of marketing opportunities is your real estate round table. So could you talk about the real estate front table? And then also, could you tell us some of the other things you're doing, to, reign make. Sure. Absolutely. so the round table, used to be an in person round table. So I've, I've run this for approximately almost five years since I moved over here, to be an in person, monthly meeting where investors could come to network, it was a preapproved agenda, that I would come up with that would be circulated and we'd range in topics on anything real estate. So, you know, we'd have a. Bashing on 10 31 exchanges. And then the next month we may be talking about emotional support animals. but it varied. And I would get about people to come to my office. We'd have a continental type breakfast and we'd talk about it for about an hour. And then we would leave. in COVID what I quickly realized was obviously I wasn't going to be traveling anymore and I was doing those round tables in four cities. So I would do them in. Rochester. And then I was doing them in Albany and then in Buffalo and in Syracuse. So we were kind of making the upstate realm once a month, somewhere. every city would hit it somewhere. Lots of driving down the New York state, throughway back and forth. Yeah. and then include that. I was like, well, this isn't going to work. How do I keep in touch with all these people? Well, you know, have become clients. And at the same time we were seeing multifamily B right away, a problem, no one knew how to deal with people who tested positive or. Nope. How their employees been resigned to having to go in house who may or may not have COVID and then the PPC P loans and the EDI loans, carving out through that process, whether landlords were able to, to be eligible for those loans, it quickly, became a parent. I started it as a Facebook live every day where it was coming. Deeds on the state of, and then I realized, no you engage. We need to have people comment and talk to each other and keep it so that they feel like they could ask it well, on those people were home and walking them through daily. you know, I would sit in front of the TV. I would take what the governor was saying and day and how it. Pertaining to housing or how it pertains to labor law and really just digressing information. offering legal sound advice in terms of, this is what the EO says today. This is, Oh, you have to comply, walking through those of legislation. State world really every day and being somewhat of a broadcast news program. but then being able to have people receptive asking questions and it kind of flourished, I didn't mean for it to. Perhaps go this long. But what I have heard is, you know, it's been a lifeline, it's been somewhat of the only resource out there so that somebody can actually ask a question and get an answer, and then collectively the networking opportunity for everybody. On the call being that I'm reaching all of New York state and even sometimes people in other States, the ability of somebody in New York city to talk to somebody in Buffalo, those relationships that didn't exist before are now forged. Then, you know, if someone who's maybe selling their property has somebody to see if they want to buy it. So it's really, yeah. The, developed into something nice and, and consistently I'm still getting about. 45 to 60 people on which, you know, we're in July. And that that's crazy to me that that is still something people want to tune into live at two o'clock that's excellent. Yeah, it's been, it's been cool. So, I'll ask to ask the follow up question and then Selena is going to hit you with two questions. So what is the, what's been the response to your, to your partners at your law firm? Just because this is a little outside of the cookie cutter. formula because, you know, I assume it's non billable time that you have. So how, what is your, what are your partners, finding, you know, are responsive to this particular marketing opportunity, which I think were coming from the large firm world and now, working at a boutique firm, I think it's innovative and amazing for you. Yeah. So, they've always been supportive here, which is, again, one of the reasons why I'm moving made sense from a larger law firm that I was at before. the non-billable aspect of it. We actually have, I have a three hour billable non-billable requirement, for marketing and for, for client development every day, that fits what I'm doing. but I will tell you that it's hard to. Argue, we've almost gotten 50 clients in sense. Go ahead. So, it's exposure, it's, you know, it's showing you, you're able to be, a resource in your craft landlord, tenant law used to be something that, You know, most people would be like, Oh, that's a first year thing. And you know, really not wanting to get into and akin to directly election and foreclosure. And a lot of people would, you know, roll their nose at that or roll their eyes at that. it is so tough right now. It is something it's an area of minefield and trying to navigate the changes that are daily that, you know, it's. It's it's starting in that. And then what I tell my partners is you showcase your skills in something niche, and then you prove to them, you can do that and you help them when they need help. And then they come back for something else. And so that's kind of the model is being responsive. Being able to, to be a resource that they, you know, they hear your voice, that you're you're gosh, and they understand, you know, what you're talking about and that you're not just guessing. And, You know, unfortunately, there's a lot of people in this area who were giving bad advice in the beginning and telling clients they can do certain things. And the, and they couldn't, and there were all kinds of attorney general recourse. yeah. And so, you know, it's, it's I tell my client. Clients all the time. I'm a very conservative attorney. I'm not going to I'll you to do anything that could potentially make you the Guinea pig to an action in the state and I'm belt and suspenders. So a lot of the work product, is overkill. And so we, we have a dedicated it's boiling code, backslash R E R t.com website, which is the real estate round table. It's got 50 resources on there in terms of forms and documents and flow charts and all kinds of things that were made during COVID, to assist people and, you know, they can't tune in, they can jump on there and go take some information. And we, we video every day. So if somebody can't come on at two o'clock live, they can go back and they can watch that. Episode for that day. And, we're getting, you know, no less than probably 2000 hits on those videos a day. So it really is something that I think people are, are happy to have as a resource, so that they can, you know, real time when they can watch it and gain a lesson of whatever it was for the day. That's awesome. I have another question which pertains more to, I guess it's. It's a hypothetical, which is something I constantly ask Steven. And every attorney I come across is because of this pandemic. Do you think property values are going to drop cool. I think that if landlords, do not get their rent and we, and I, and I think this is also, so I'm going to, I'm going to bifurcate that for a second. I'm going to talk about multifamily. I'm going to talk about homeowners. Cause I think they're two different conversations, right. But in multifamily, I think, we saw. April at 25%, we saw may at 38% and we started June at 40% rent, shortfalls, upstate. I'm waiting on July, whereas right now they're not getting better in the stimulus, obviously goes away this month. I think that if we see. That trend and more people are unable to get their value for their properties. I think what's going to ultimately happen is we're going to get a fire sale. I see it in my clients already saying I'm selling, they're selling now while the property values are still holding, but the problem is do we get people who continuously still want to buy into multifamily in New York? And I'm afraid, obviously I still think we're going to have our out of state investors. but at some point your local investors who grew up in these cities, they can reinvest their money elsewhere. And I think that, you know, the overregulation in New York state combined with COVID and people just not. Getting the money for their value and still having to pay their property taxes and, you know, everything else that goes with the operation of a business. I think there's, we're getting to that fine line where I could see, the landlords challenging the assessed value of those properties. And when they challenge it, Lowering the tax base and, you know, having a larger impact then on homeowners in general. cause someone's gonna have to make up for those taxes that are agreed by a landlord. and I'm not sure. I think that, you know, we're holding tight right now. The market's really hot still. but I can foresee that we're going to have a tough fall if we don't recover from this quickly. Okay. And would you recommend someone who's never. Purchased the property during these times, because I hear a lot. And Steven himself, he does a lot of, of clients, especially here in Florida, considering what happened back in 2005, who say, well, I want to buy a property that's in foreclosure. And you know, they want to go blindly and purchase this on their own a lot of times. And what advice would you give someone who says that to you? I usually say you should probably do this with an attorney. because we've had cases where people say, Oh, there was all these assessments. I didn't know about. What advice would you give someone who is waiting for that to happen for properties to go into foreclosure after COVID, because people may not be able to, you know, pay their deferments and they're waiting for that moment. So it's tough because we tell clients all the time, those look great and they tend to have a ton of problems. and you know, you need to make sure your title's clean. You need to make sure that, somebody who, was in the property got all the notices that required in a foreclosure to do, or, or they could kinda house that. you need to make sure that person didn't have liens on that property, even if they're just judgment liens. where they owed money to somebody, cause then you're going to be dealing with, you know, release of those liens, at least off the property for you. they're dangerous. I mean, there are often not worth the risk of, the, the monetary difference. we tell clients there's other properties to buy. a lot of the time that are equally good value. And so you try and. Move them over to that. but if somebody truly wants to buy a foreclosure, I mean, we will just look at it and, and counsel them on the facts of where they're, we're seeing and, and ask for additional searches. we make our clients pay them a lot of the times. They're not going to be paid for by the bank, so that they can get their own sound protection of, you know, what it is that they're buying and making sure it's actually a good deal. Fantastic. So, the name of this podcast is attorneys are human too. So we we've talked a lot about your practice and we've talked a lot about, you know, the real estate and investment business in general. But now we want to see, we want to prove to our, to our listeners and I, and I've had the opportunity on a few occasions to get to know you personally, and you're an amazing person. So we're going to shift the discussion a little bit more on, on who Jamie Michelle Kane is as a person. So at first the fun stuff that the millennials love like Selena. So my first question is who was your celebrity crush as a child? Or is it teenager as a teenager? I'm ready, Prince jr. love those screen movies. And then, there, there was a movie called summer cats. he played a baseball player. Yeah, I think that did it. I was probably like 17, 18. And that, that did it. That gotcha. Okay. So the next, the next question is I know you're a really big sports fan. And my understanding from what you've told me is, is football is your favorite sport. So what's your favorite football team and who is your favorite player of all time? And then your current favorite player? Okay. So I'm a giant fan. I obviously grew up on long Island, so, although I live in Buffalo and I fully support the bills, giants have remained my team, all time football. I think I have to, Growing up. Jerry Rice was definitely somebody that, I love it. I was watching in terms of just the receiver and then I think all time, Barry Sanders probably would be who I would say in terms of, Just overall player. And my favorite player now is Saquon Barkley. he led me to my fantasy football championship last year. So, so we are going to have, and I know you liked me, but you may not like me as much. So when I tell you my favorite team is the Cowboys. So we're going to have to have a, we're gonna have to have a friendly little rate wager during the season. Oh, okay. So funny, true story. when I was little, there was a Thanksgiving game where the giants. Plead Dallas. And I got mad at my dad for some reason, and I became a cowboy fan, very, very short woman. but you know, you can't go wrong with a moose Johnson and Aikman and Emma and, there were so many, urban that game. I had my dad really mad at me that he thought I was to be, but I respect it. That's okay. It's okay. That's why that's a CDM on my list. So I like to go around and tour stadiums, go to games and all of the 50 States is like, I do it for baseball and we do it for football. And, that's on my, my list of definite ones. Okay. I'm going to add one of these questions. What are these fun questions is during this pandemic, since we're all trapped at home for the most part, what TV shows have you been bingeing on? I never watched it. and yeah, you know, people were like, Oh, you're going to watch this. And true. Another true little tip, a bit of a me, I wanted to go into fashion law. I'm a huge person despite the sports and, you know, boy attitude that I have, I am very big into fashion. So I, I wanted to go in fashion law. And for some reason, I missed the show when it first came out. But now, I am full fledged obsessed with the fashion and the LA LA lawyering skills of it. So I've been bingeing through that. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. That doesn't surprise me. New Yorkers fashion. I feel like they go here for sure. Yup. Excellent. So I have another few more questions and then I know your time is at a premium, so, so we'll wrap it up. so then my next question is what skills have you to learn during covert? Like, for example, I I've learned how to code and I'm also, obviously I'm, I'm, I'm stepped up my social media again and learning to podcast and, you know, different ways to promote our firm outside of. you know, the traditional pounding the pavement and pounding the flash. So, one of the things I was doing before, COVID, I'm a coalition leader of a coalition called under one roof. it was created last year as a result of. the, the most sweeping piece of luggage in New York had gotten in the real property law arena in the last 50 years. And so we, we formed it. it's, it's made up of landlords and tenants. And so, we formed it to kind of push back on some of the, parts of the law that were hurting both landlords and tenants. that caused me to have to basically fly around the state, educating people. So I was on an airplane, I would say, like once a month and traveling probably, three days out of the week for, the, the proceeding months of, of COVID. So, It caused me to obviously slow down and, and all of a sudden it was like, ah, I got a lot of time back and it's your point? It was, what can we do during this? And so I used it as an opportunity to meet new people and to reach out to people and to really put yourself in the line of, you know, I don't know you, you don't know me, but Hey, let's figure out like, what is the commonality that we both have that could, put us in a situation where we can benefit whether it's a lesson we learn from each other or, you know, marketing opportunities that, you know you're in Florida, hate me working in New York and vice versa. but also to really just. Use it as a moment in time to what do I want to do in my career? Because I feel like I've been having a lot of that struggle of, you know, Oh my goodness. Like, could this happen again? And, and is this really what I want to do? and how do you safeguard what you've put into your practice to make sure that in, in a second, a pandemic can't ruin that. So, you know, just trying to dive down into deeper skillsets and diversify practice areas and, and learn new things and, ways of. Educating clients when you can't be face to face. And so, you know, learning to slow down and dye, pick things and use graphs and use technology to be able to make sure that your clients actually understanding what you're saying instead of just, you know, talking at somebody. I learned how to make pizza. I was pretty proud of myself during COVID. So I'm not as disciplined as you are. Jamie, do you deliver you? Come on. You can put it in the mail. I can, I can deliver, I can send it through FedEx, but my family has been asking me for like, Junior's cheesecake to be delivered. So. I think everyone's picked up new skills during this pandemic. I've definitely, I've always been into technology, but I've definitely sharpened up a lot of my social media just because I'm one of those millennials who doesn't love social media as much. So I've had to just kind of take over and, and market all the other things that I do. It's a fine line. oftentimes I wonder once so how often then to be relevant to the people, people that you're reaching out to. And that's, I guess my biggest struggle right now is, you know, putting up content that gets people's attention that they want buy into you. They want to look at what you're doing and maybe reach out to you versus, you know, is this normal? so that, that's the only thing. Yeah. I'm saying I'm seeing, as, you know, trying to find that fine line between that, that engagement point. Well, how are you coping with, because this happens to me a lot of times clients call and because they know it's COVID and they know I'm working from home, they feel that they can call me at 9:00 PM, 10:00 PM, 11:00 PM, and all weekend. And they're just like, Hey, I know you're home, but I have a question. Yeah. so I will tell you, I have two little kids, four, four and six. So she actually, she just turned five, so five and six. it's. It's hard. Right. So, you know, you're trying to be on a zoom call. You're trying to do that, but you're trying to keep your kids quiet, without schools open and daycare available. and you're right. July 4th weekend, I was on the phone with a client the entire weekend for scenario. I think. It's about boundaries. You set? I'm bad at that. So I will email the client back at 2:00 AM because I'm up. I think what I had to realize in COVID was wait a minute, if I'm answering it too, right. I think that that's a free pass too. Always be on the hook. So, you know, it's hard. I don't necessarily mind it specifically, but what I tell clients is, you know, text me first, because I gave all them my cell phone number on the round table live. I don't know if that was such a great idea. Famous last words, Jamie, we read once they do that. With texting it's they use an abusive sin, Lena and I both know, we were always cautious to decide who we give our cell phone numbers for. Cause we, we also do a lot of bankruptcy work here in Florida. So, you know, those folks are at their last limb. So they are the ones that often bankruptcy is nerve wracking. So they're constantly through the whole process. They're constantly on edge. Right, for sure. yeah, I mean, I wouldn't give it to a tenant who, you know, was on the other side of us, but I have with my clients and, you know, I just asked, you know, I do have kids, so just text me first if I don't get right back to you, you know, generally speaking, if you don't hear from me in 24 hours, that was a problem. but I also have an amazing assistant who, you know, is also very much on the ball and communicating and letting people know, you know, Hey, she's doing this, but let's get an appointment on the calendar so that we, we schedule. Okay, great. Well, Selena and I are going to ask one question, one more question each, and then we're going to go to our lightning round and then we'll finish up. Okay. Okay. So, so my last question to you, just because we're both Syracuse alum, what is your favorite Syracuse sports moment? I think we spoke about it briefly, but totally. the whole reason why I decided to go to Syracuse, my parents both went there, but I was looking at Yukon. Oh, I was going to play there. but the, the whole reason why I went to was because of the basketball, football wasn't good. Really? When I was there, they were, they were good right before I was there. And then they were, they were not. so it was about basketball and, When Carmelo came in, I'm like, all right, this is it. This is, this is the opportunity. And then they won when I was there. And I think the best moment was, watching the last, you know, basically minute of that game, where it was going back and forth. And you really didn't know. And anyway, Jerry McNamara was happy the game of his life and, you know, It was work and missed the very, I think it was the very last two, free throws and the ball went back to Kansas and I was like, that's it. They're going to hit a three and they're going to win. And you know, this is going to be like 96 all over again. And, when he blocked the shot for the winning, Basket worked in. I was like, Oh my God, they're gonna win. They're gonna win. And it was, it was just, I felt like I was winning it for my parents who had gone there also, cause they had never seen a championship. So, it was a really cool and I think there was nothing that that would be that. Yeah. I grew up in Syracuse and my grandfather had a store on campus, which is now Fagan's, which is a pretty popular, watering hole on campus. I had my name on the plaque from the drinking, all the beers. I actually was teary eyed when they won, that should have been because my grandfather passed away and he was a huge Syracuse fan. And so I got to see something. That, he never got to see. And it was, it was a great moment. And I actually, I took my son. I was actually the last one of the last games before COVID, we saw Syracuse play basketball at the university of Miami and he never went to see a Syracuse basketball game in person. And he always gives me a hard time because the last couple of years, Syracuse basketball has not been very good, but at the end he was, he was jumping up and down cause the game went to overtime and he was going crazy during that game. So I think I passed a little bit of. There's nothing. Oh, well now it'll be even interesting with the new dome, but there was nothing like that noise in that. we don't that, that I've ever experienced. I mean, I've gone to a ton of games and it's just, the energy has always been something that's totally electric and, and super fun. So I'm very fond memories of watching games though. Selena, last question, before we go to the lightning round. Well, this is just a random question since we're doing a lot of zoom meetings and, and, things like that, of this nature using technology. My question. Is this, are you in your zoom meetings? Just professionally from the waist up. And is it pajamas on the bottom? Is it a party? Well, today I just have a dress, but I tell you I will cop. To professional dress and like running shorts and go for a run before or after. for sure. no, I've never done the pajamas, I guess. but yeah, pajama pants on the bottom and the waist up buttoned down shirt. Yes. you know, it it's. It was something during COVID that it was like, all right, you actually have to get up and get dressed. Someone's going to look at your face. And, I did order like close during COVID that we're just shirts because a lot of mine is like suits and I was not going to put that on. And so, yeah, for sure. I've definitely done that. I worked with drama pants during a motion calendar hearing. I'm not going to lie. I had the sir either or the shirt and tie and the jacket and pajama pants. Right. During a zoom call, emotion can be pretty Brit. Okay. So we're going to wrap it up and I, and I really appreciate it, but before we wrap it up, we're going to go to the lightning round. Okay. Ready? It's just going to be, I'm going to give you two choices and without any explanation, you just give us the answer. Okay. Burgers or tacos, burgers, basketball, or football about diet Coke or Coke. Beach or mountains. Hmm. Okay. hugs or kisses? Kisses. Okay. And the final one drum roll, please. Hip hop or heavy metal. Hip hop. Okay, excellent. So Jamie, we really appreciate you taking the time out to speak to our listeners and I, and I think we've got a lot of great, you know, education as well as learning, you know, you're amazing person, you know, we have the utmost respect for you being the only female partner at your law firm, managing that with marketing and, and being the mother of two lovely children. So how do we find you online? How do our, how do our clients find you? My email address is J C a I [email protected] and, my firm's website, which is boiling code.com has all my information on it as well. my office phone number for anybody who does it. Own property or needs a consult in New York is, area code (585) 238-3514. And how about social media? How do we find you on social media? Cause we all want to be your connection and all want to be your friend Instagram. So I am on, Facebook it's Jamie Kane. On Facebook and then on Twitter, it's Jamie Michelle with two, L's the number six. and I am on LinkedIn also. I, I don't subscribe to an Instagram account, only because I try and safeguard my kids since I've been on this coalition. I'm Selena. I appreciate you both having me on. Okay. Thanks so much. All right. Take care. Bye.