Join Host Steve Wallace and Co-Host Celena Muzic of The Wallace Law Group as they are joined by Professor Laura McNally-Levine of Case Western School of Law.
Topics Discussed Include:
Current and Future State of Legal Education
Preparing Law Students to be Lawyers
Discussion of Clinical Learning in Law School
Expectations from Law Students and Law School Success
Technological Advances in Legal Eduction
Are Law Students Prepared to Practice Law after Graduation?
Pop Culture Banter
so we'll jump right in. So, Laura, can you tell me about, where you grew up and, you know, just some hobbies or extracurricular activities you had when you were a child and a teenager?Laura McNally-Levine:
Ah, funny. so I grew up in Syracuse, New York and, hobbies I had when I was kid, I was really active outdoors. I played tennis. I was a lifeguard. My family, was really connected with social service agencies and they ran, Social service agency in our community. So I was a permanent volunteer at Huntington family center in our hometown. So I spent many, hours, volunteering at my mom's agency and working with folks that she was a social worker with and kind of folks that needed help in the community.Steven Wallace:
Excellent. And where did you go to undergraduate? So I went to undergrad at Hobart and William Smith college in Geneva, New York.Laura McNally-Levine:
Good. The cross team, right. I had a good lacrosse team. I met both of my uncles, played for Hobart, so I was a legacy at a LeBaron William Smith. They were national champion lacrosse players. Yeah. And, we share something, we share a couple of things in common, but one of the things we share in common is where we went to law school. Could you tell our listeners, where you attended law school? Yeah. I went to Syracuse for law school. Let's go orange and we graduated together in the same class. And so. One of the things that I never thought was even possible is right out of law school. someone could, pursue a career in academia.Steven Wallace:
And, and my understanding is just on our show research, that you never left. LA can you tell us about how one can accomplish that? Because I'll tell you. After pressing I'm approaching my 20th year of practice and I would love those carefree days of law school. How does, how do our listeners accomplish that?Laura McNally-Levine:
Well, so it's not so carefree, but I went to law school, wanting to represent kids with disabilities and, I also had my undergrad teaching degree. So I wanted to combine teaching and practice in some way. And, Experiential education is what we call it nowadays. But back in the day, when we were in law school, we had a clinic and I was fortunate to be able to be in a clinic when I was a second year and then a third year. And I fell in love with the idea of kind of small cases and learning how to practice before you leave law school. and who knew that there was a career around that, in clinical teaching and. When I was a third year, there was a job posting for a fellowship in Alabama, and it combined my interest in, special education litigation and teaching. And I applied and, I got the job and then I had to decide if I was willing to move from upstate New York, which is my comfort zone to the deep South to do something that I said I wanted to do when I went to law school. So that's how I ended up in. law school teaching and which law school did you start your teaching? So I started at the university of Alabama roll tide. Oh, excellent. And so if you could, I just want to back up a second, if you could. I also had the privilege of taking advantage of, I guess what we call now, experiential learning. When I, my second year of law school, I was an extern at the United States attorney's office. Yep. and then my third year, may he rest in peace? I was in the criminal law clinic with professor weeks. Yeah. And I can tell you that that was an amazing experience. And for any of those, folks that are looking to go to law school or current law students, you know, certainly, it's good to kind of dip your toes in the water. So you can experience how the practice flaws and the reason why I'm giving you this long. So the liquid is that I was wondering which clinic were you in, in law school and tell us that experience. I took what was called the public interest law firm. One. I remember that, yeah, in my second year and the public interest law firm to in my second year. so it was a civil rights. Clinic and my first go at it. I represented folks in kind of federal, civil rights cases. I did employment discrimination cases. I did an ADA accessibility case where there were. Folks who were deaf and were denied sign language interpreters at hospitals. So they had no idea of what was happening to them while they were in the emergency room of the hospital. that was one of my cases. It was a really interesting, experience. I, you know, as I said, I went to law school. You represent kids in special education, disputes and. At the clinic broadened my idea of what you could do as a lawyer and how you could represent them. So it made the world a little bigger, in terms of what representation might look like. And I also represented an individual who was keeping baby positive, and his doctor disclosed his status to his employer. In a workers' compensation case. And today we would be like, wow, how could that have happened? But the case was, and this was the late nineties, gender ladies and gentlemen. So things were were a lot different. That makes a little more sense to me. I'm here, like gasping, like, but he actually was the person. That set the standard in New York state. So it was a 1991 piece. And when I worked on it was 10 years old or eight, nine, eight, nine years old. so he had set the standard in New York and they were still litigating damages by the time I was a student. and so it had been a long drawn out process. They had. I'm really gone at it for a long time time. About how hard was he? but he had made law for a lot of other people to come behind him and have protected status. So it was a really interesting clinic. And what I liked about it was I learned that he could make mistakes and have somebody there. If you had a mentor or right. Somebody who was going to make sure that the client wasn't hurt and you could learn. what you were supposed to do as a lawyer, in a safe space. And that, to me, that was really interesting to me. And, the idea that I could do that for a living, that, that there was a job somewhere out there that you could teach and practice, right. Help folks who. We didn't have any means of representation because clinic medical programs around the country represent folks who can't afford representation. That's a premise of those programs. that. Spoke to me. the way I grew up who my family is kind of what we're about. Being able to help folks that can access resources and to teach the next generation of lawyers. That was perfect. That's fantastic. That is fantastic. are you currently still practicing law? yeah. So I've been able to do that for 21 years. so I have taught in a clinic since I graduated from law school and I've taught at three different schools. I started at Alabama. and I moved to Suffolk in Boston for a year. And I've been here for I think, 16 years. so at case Western and I've been really fortunate to be able to continue to do what I do. and, and it's been a fun, a fun career, not one that I thought existed. but. Yeah, I do. I love it. And we've been able to help a lot of people along the way. So I have a question, and this is kind of random, but I always hear a lot of attorneys and I guess, especially cause I'm younger, but they're always say law school only teaches you the law. It doesn't teach you how to practice. Yep. Right. And that's how it was. Right. for forever in a day. And then in 2009, there started to be a bunch of reports that came out that said law school did a really good job in the first year, helping you think like a lawyer, right. We break you down, we build you back up and we get you to think like a lawyer, but then what we don't do so well is teach her how to do it. Right. In medical school and social work and dentistry, they don't let you out until you touch a patient or a client, but in law school you can graduate and never have met. A client and there's something scary about that. There's something wrong with that idea, right? It's, it's terrifying and it's kind of wrong. that we do that. And so there was a movement to add experiential education as a requirement to graduation from law school. And so now there's a requirement that. Students have to have six credits, not six credits. I could get it wrong. How many credits they're supposed to have at my school? They have to have 12 credits of experiential education before they graduate. And six of them have to be in a clinic or an externship. So we have a very high standard of what our students have to do before they leave. but there are rules. in every state and every time the school for what they have to do before they can go out into practice. Yes. And they have to, at least have been exposed by a simulation, if not, by working with a real. Person, before they graduate. So, so my firm, I'm sorry to interrupt, we do have some experience, on both of those regards. So, our law firm, we were affiliated with a Nova Southeastern, school of law and we are a participating firm in the transactional law clinic. and then Selena and I, this past semester until COVID we were affiliated with the pre law program at a local high school, Spanish river, high school in Boca Raton. And so we've actually had both a law school law school interns. As well as high school interns. So we have some experience with it. we do appreciate it and we're gonna continue to host both obviously law school interns and, High school intern. So, so the one thing I just want to share with both of you a story that certainly you haven't heard Laura, but Selena has heard a lot of my war stories. So I had a summer associate position. I'm with a large law firm in Syracuse. So with the law firm, while remaining rain nameless, and they were really pleasant guys, but I just remember. I went through, I pretty much, most of the things, most of the work that I did was litigation. And I just remember how draining and how, how just horrible the actual practice of law is. And it kind of goes with what Laura says that. The law school was great. I mean, I'm one of the most people hated law school. I loved law school. I loved the challenge. I love the intellectual, back and forth.Steven Wallace:
I obviously met a lot of good folks in law school, but I just remember telling my mom, at the end of the summer, I'm like, mom, I'm so happy this over. I hate being a lawyer. What am I going to do? So. Great. I mean, can you imagine going for three years, and then not really experiencing what it's like to be an actual lawyer and you walk into the affirm and, and you're surprised that that's what practice is really like.Laura McNally-Levine:
when I was student teaching, in my undergrad, they had a really unique program where you started student teaching in your sophomore year. And you had six placements before you did your full on student teaching because they wanted to make sure that you wanted to be in the classroom before they gave you a classroom for your student teaching, because it's a real commitment. and a lot of people would drop out because they realized it wasn't. For them, they had that, it wasn't an interest of theirs. And I think we do a disservice to the practice if we don't expose students to what it's like. And that's why our client's satisfaction is down. if you don't know how to talk to us client, that's why clients are unhappy is because lawyers don't know how to talk to them. So we like to try and give our students experience with that. And so here we have a one L client experience. in their first year, we have our students out, in brief advice clinics with legal aid and other places so that they start practicing, talking to real people as soon as they get here. so that they get used to it because it takes time. It doesn't just happen. some people are good at it, most people aren't. and so you have to work at it.Celena Muzic:
True. I mean, Steven and I we've had that experience with some of our interns. Where I find myself having to pull them aside and say, listen, this is still kind of customer service in a way. So we have to talk to people a certain way and explain, because not everybody understands the wall. We've had that with some of the attorneys, the associates that we've had too, where they they're they're licensed attorneys and they have no idea how to talk to a client. No, not at all. And they don't know how to break down the law so that the person understands.Laura McNally-Levine:
So you get a lot of frustration, you get a lot of the clients frustrated and the new attorneys frustrated Yeah. Well, that's the fun, that's what I like about my job. I mean, when I really get to do the day to day practice with the students is, you know, teaching them and working with them on how. They can get better at what they're doing. Yeah. And it's because I had professors who sat with me for a long time. I can remember the first, motion argument I did and how many hours my professor had to sit with me in order for me to be comfortable. And I tell the story about how ridiculous I was because I had a written out, Oh, you know, like statement that I was going to read to the court. And, and I did judge, let me read it. He didn't interrupt. And then he had a question, for opposing counsel and then, and for me, and as soon as he asked the question, I turned to my supervising attorney and I said, your turn and I sat down, like I was done. Cause I read my thing and I was done. Now I could never do that now. Right. Like that's ridiculous. You don't do that. But in a clinic. I had somebody who was there to protect the client and knee and in the whole process. And she stood up and handled it and I got to watch a real lawyer, do what lawyers are supposed to do, but I was horrified. And if I hadn't had that experience, I wouldn't have known what it was supposed to look like. and so that's why I love the opportunity and I love what I've been able to do. Well, what do you think about the technology now? Because now you can go to law school completely online. Yeah. I hate it. I think it's a good and a bad thing. I think it's good if, if you have to work nowadays, because you know, we're living in a different world, however, a part of me feels and feels that it takes away the interaction. From the student and the professor, which doesn't translate well into the real world. Well, right now it does right in this, dynamic we're in, at works really well, but I think long term, we're going to have to figure out how to make it work. And I think there's value in all of it. I've found it to be challenging, but it's a growth point for everyone. Like folks, my age, I feel old, but when I say it, but where I'm not as skilled at all of the bells and whistles as I could be. And so it's pushed me to learn a bunch of things. I have all the technology available to me. I'm still at a university. We have great technology, but to use it as a no other things, right. You can have access to it, knowing how to use it as another. Another story. Our students need to know how to use it to having it's one thing using it well as another. we have to train all of us, online school. It's great. I think we have to mix it right. I like the programs. Like we have programs here on campus at other schools, not our school, but other departments on campus where you do a lot of online horses, but then you come for intensive weekends. And so you do get the in person, you know, networking and face to face time. And I do think there should be. A mix of both, right. the recognition that people are busy, but also the recognition that you do need to continue to network in person. you can't lose all of that. Yeah. Okay. Let me, let me ask you a question, Laura. So which, famous attorney or, or judge, would, would you consider a role model, famous attorney or judge? So you asked me that question and I don't really have everybody has one and I don't have one. Mine's the Lincoln lawyer. Well, I love Matthew McConaughey. I got to tell you, well, I wrote you then I'm reading Michael Connelly books. I read books. That's right. I could be there with you. I'm like one of those people that doesn't have a, in my back pocket, favorite lawyer, judge. You know, I, I feel silly with judge Joe Brown. I have so I have a story about judge Judy. He wrote a chapter about, in one of her books, a little story about one of my uncles and, in my family, it's kind of family war. We love that story because she's the only one that we've ever met. I could put him in his place. And so we love her for that. did your uncle win or lose the case? It wasn't a case. He was in charge of selling her TV show. He was, in charge of distribution of judge Judy, the DV show. And he kind of didn't treat her with all the respect. She thought she was due and she kind of smacked him down for it and wrote about it in her book. This will get us 10,000 extra listens because we have judged you a judge, Judy reference. Yeah. So I liked the judge duty. I, you know, he gave the book to my grandmother with a posted note when Christmas and said this, these two pages are about me and we read it and we were like, go judge Judy. So I like judge Judy, so, okay. Got one more, got another one for you. Alright. What is your ideal law student? What personality type and what skillset would get an a in professor McNaulty Levine's clinical class. Okay. So this one's easy for me. I like a student. You don't actually have to be top of the class. those, those students are, are awesome. Right? They're really good at law school, but they may not get the best grade in my clinic. sometimes they do. They don't. I want somebody who's going to dig in. Right? You got to dig in. You gotta work hard. You gotta be on afraid of getting dirty. dig into the file. Be creative. and what we talk about, my colleague, I used to Hardaway and I, we talk a lot about being able to pivot. So a lot of times, and the law, the facts don't go your way and you have to learn how to turn and kind of be creative. And, and so we talk about pivoting a lot. And so, even kids that don't know how to do it, if they're open to learning how to do it, that's, that's a kid in my class. Somebody who's open to learning how to do it. Somebody who wants to learn,Celena Muzic:
I'm going to play devil's advocate to that same question and ask, have you ever reached a point with a student that you've said maybe law is not for you? I've met some attorneys that I've said to myself, we've had some that have worked in our office that we kinda think it maybe is not the right. Yeah. Then I said, maybe you shouldn't be in this profession. Yeah. I mean it's kind of fun cause I see them it's, it's kinda too late. By the time I meet them. When they're in the clinic with me now I get to see students in their first, second and third year because of my position as associate Dean, for experiential education. But when I was teaching just that in the health book clinic, I was only teaching third years. So by the time I saw them, it's kinda too late there. They're almost done. And, and well, but even with them just talking about what they, I have actually, I have one student in my mind. she's one of my favorite and I just visited her out in Seattle last year. And when she came into the, I knew her from her first year to her third year, and I asked her every year, are you sure that law school is for you? And the answer was no, it wasn't. she liked the educational enterprise, but being a lawyer was not at the end of the road for her. And now she's like a computer. A tech person, you know, like computers were her thing. and you just kinda know that, and that's not where they're headed, but that doesn't mean the, the processes and, worth it. You know, like law school to me, I always thought of for myself too, I didn't know that I was going to be, I knew that law school was, going to law school, gave me a set of tools. it's a way of thinking. It's a way of approaching the world. It doesn't necessarily mean that at the end of the road, you're going to be a lawyer. It just means you have the ability to navigate certain situations and think through situations in a particular way. So I knew it was tools I was putting in my tool box. It didn't necessarily mean I was going to be an attorney. okay. And so even with my students who get to the end of three years and that they ultimately decided they don't want to be a lawyer, I don't think that's a loss. I think that that just means that they're going to take it wherever they go. And they have a set of skills. some might argue it's an expensive set of tools in the jewel box, but, I don't think it's a loss. I just think it's, you know, you have to think about what you've learned along the way.Steven Wallace:
Okay. So do you and just kind of transitioning, my next question for you is do you think that you can utilize the law to achieve social justice? And if so, how so? I mean, it's funny. I just, you have to see my pieces of paper for a conversation. well, cause we were, we've been talking a lot about this, my. Clinic is all, about social justice. We have nine clinics here in, in my clinical program. And we were just, I was just writing a paragraph about it last night. And then I went and I looked up cause everybody talks about social justice, but what does it mean? I mean, you tell me what it means. I don't know. I mean, I know it when I see it, but do you know the definition of it? I don't know if I could tell you a sentence of what social justice means. And so I found one and the four, the four principles of social justice are, equity, access, participation, and rights. I like those, and all of our clinics do that work here. And so, you know, I think about, we have a reentry clinic. We're we're working with folks who are just leaving, you know, state and local, prison and jail, and we're helping them with stabilization in the housing and employment. so that social justice, to me, I've worked on lead poisoning cases. that social justice to me, like working with medical legal partnerships. I created one with university hospital here, working with families and kids for housing issues, guardianship, social security, which is economic stability, that social justice to me. but that's what social justice means to me. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's a definition that works for somebody else. that's excellent. Selena, what, what would you like to ask her? Our professor here. I mean, I think right now we're living in a world where yes, I agree. It's it definitely is up to the person, the definition of social justice when we're living in a world where what you do is so necessary. and so many different ways, that we need more people like you out there to help our communities, you know, improve. Yeah, well, and I mean, I think that's the great thing about clinical programs at law schools. if law, if, if folks are trying to look for ways to support social justice in their communities, legal aid is a way. And so our, our clinical programs, because I think one of the things that we do is educate future lawyers about giving back to their communities through pro bono work. Right. So I know. That my students, aren't going to go out and become legal aid attorneys or work in areas of social justice. They're nine to five or nine to nine or nine to midnight. Yeah. Whatever their jobs are when they leave. but could I train them and they could take a pro bono case every year or five. Yeah. And so can I hit a passion point for them by exposing them to the work and making them comfortable in it? before they graduate and they're learning skills along the way, that's, that's a hope of mine. Right? So that's something you've seen an attorney through your clinic. Sorry. What did you say? How would a person betaine an attorney through your clinic? So we have a open intake line. so depending on the clinic that we, I should transfer some of our calls to your lung.Laura McNally-Levine:
No, not happening. but you know, we work with our local legal aid society and depending on our clinics, like my clinic, I'll either take cold calls that come through our front desk or I'll work with legal aid to pick up some of the cases that they can't take, because they have such a, a huge number of folks that they're unable to, to help. Our civil litigation clinical pick up cases that way as well. we have a human trafficking clinic that takes, calls off the front desk, but we also do outreach we're at five different, community centers doing intake and outreach. That way we do a whole bunch of different things here. And I mean, we do a lot of things. We're not unique law schools around the country do similar things. I think we're great. I won't say, but the need is there and I, I think our students get great experience by participating in the work that we do. we just, we're fortunate. We get to add a first amendment clinic this year. we just we're grant funded to. To do that. so we're in the thick of thick of that. That'll be fine. So let me ask you a question. So, you know, I've been reading the last few years. the, the applications for law school have gone down, has that changed the selection process? Because I know case Western reserve is one of the more exclusive law schools. So. generally, if there's more applications, you would have a higher yeah. Choice to, to pick out of. So I I'm just wondering, has the admission standards changed at all since there's been a drop in law school applications? So it's interesting there. I don't think there's been a drop. There was a drought, numbers are not down. It depends on the year. Our numbers are, I'm not down our selectivities. The same. Our students are the same for the last couple of years. So in terms of our credentials were the same. so our entering class over the last couple of years have had the same mentoring, just kind of following up on that question. So one of the things that we experienced and I think it started when we started graduating law school, it used to be that if you went to law school, you were guaranteed to make X number of dollars and drive X car and live in X neighborhood. And starting with, with our, with our years, we've been through, since we've been out of law school. We've seen two or three booms and the three or four bus. And so, one of the things that if I was an incoming law student, I would ask you, well, if I go to case Western reserve law school, am I going to get a job when I graduate? Say two different things. I don't know about you, but I paid a lot of money to go to law school when we went to law school. I did, and I lived at home to save some of that money. I lived with my grandparents in the last year of law school. so I would tell you that we have a pretty good scholarship, rate here at case Western. So the. The, law students that are going to school here, are looking at a different kind of debt at the end of the day, then you and I are talking about. So I think that, folks need to look at what their end of the road death looks like before they have a conversation about like what the end of the day looks like. I think they have a lot of ability to, Make good choices about what their job prospects look like when they're done when they graduate here. I don't think they have to pick, a job that they disdain. our students get jobs. That's good to hear the, some of the other schools that are not as highly ranked. Professors may not be to me. They may not be able to answer the question the same way. So as we're wrapping it up, I mean, I, let me say, let me say this. Let me say this about, are any of our students, any students. You gotta work for it. You can sit back and the job's not going to hand be handed it to you, right? Unless your parents have a law firm, that's a different story. Well, let me be honest. Any of my students, you know, we said this back when we were in law school, the top 10%. Are the top 10%. Right? And then everybody else, you got work. You gotta go your career development office. You've got them put in your applications. You've got to care about your cover letters. You've got to care about your. Your resume. You have to make sure you don't have mistakes in your cover letter, your resume. If you're sending out those applications in their mistakes, you better not get that job because you're going to go to the bottom of the barrel. That's where you go. If you apply to work for me, I interview people to work for me. Do they make it to the top of my pile? If they have errors? No. So it doesn't matter what school they went to. If they went to Harvard, they don't make it to the top of my pile. If they have errors in the pepper letter or the resume. I don't care how good they are. Right. So it doesn't, you have to sell yourself if you work at it, you're going to get a job. Excellent. So, so now, as wrapping up, we're going to move away from career topics and we're going to learn, we're going to learn about our professor as a human. So my first question is yes or no. Does Cleveland rock and why? Yes, I like Cleveland. so being from Syracuse, you'll understand this. Moving here feels like home. it feels like Syracuse on steroids. They're major league baseball, football, basketball. So there's always, well, not this year, but almost always sporting event to go to and, really good food. And it's on a Lake. I can tell you just my experiences with Cleveland. I went there one time with my best friend, Bobby that Selena mentioned earlier, and we went during spring break to Cleveland. Everybody's going to Florida. We go to Cleveland. I have never been colder in my life. Then standing outside of the rock and roll hall of fame in March. And I can tell you that, at least from my standpoint, my one experience, Cleveland and rocks, you know, c'mon really good food that's cause you have stuff. And by living in the South for too long, no, I can tell you that was before I lived in the South and it was the coldest I ever was in my life. I'll send you my picture. I couldn't cover all my skin up enough to be that cold. I have to say my husband is, was born in Cleveland and I'm a fellow new Yorker. And I do agree with Steven every time we go there in the winter, I feel like I am just colder than I've ever been. It's cool in New York, but the food is great. There's no snow. If you're from Syracuse, the difference between Cleveland and Syracuse is they say, it's horrible here. They don't know what snow is. So I know that's true. There wasn't a lot of snow there was ice and it was like, yeah, there's wind. There's lots of wind and you're cold, but there's no snow. So it rocks. But the food is great. I have no complaints. The food was phenomenal. Okay. LeBron James or Michael Jordan, who was the goat? Don't tell my husband. I'm kinda done with LeBron, James. Thank you. Hmm. I'm on a podcast. I liked Michael Jordan. Okay, Selena for sure. I go back and forth. I mean, they both are. I think they're both amazing players and I really enjoy watching them. And I was all LeBron James, but then I watched the last dance and then I was now I'm leaning towards Michael Jordan. I, like I respect what LeBron James has done for Akron. So on a. Person level, LeBron James is doing amazing things for his home community and as a basketball player, absolutely insane. So I think it, I wish I'm not going to pick one or the other, but I was a Michael Jordan person when I was growing up and now I live in Cleveland. Yeah. So you have to be a LeBron James person. I mean, I don't know how you pick, but. Don't tell my husband cause he hates Michael. So, so we're going to ask we're each going to ask you one more question and then Selena is going to take you through the lightning round. Okay. Okay. Selena, ask your final question. my final question is, would you consider if asked to transfer to another law school? Coming to Florida. We'd love to have you. So I, you know, always move, I've moved a bunch, but you know, you'd have to move my husband. That might be hard. Okay. My last question for you since all of us are, are kind of quarantine at our home and social distancing. What show have you been been watched? Binge watching during the pandemic. Okay. Or shows there are two right now and it's silly. So, well that's what this podcast is all about being silly. The BOSH I'm on Amazon prime because I've read all the books or listen to all the books and, RuPaul's drag race. I started. I started in season one. Cause I don't know that I saw it season one, so, okay. It's lightning round time. Selena roll please. All right, here we go. So some quick fire questions here. What's your favorite comfort food during the pen deck, Mac and cheese, Mac and cheese. next question is what's your least favorite branch of law. Least favorite branch, like area of law tax. Favorite basketball team, the Cavaliers Cami for president or Kim Kardashians. Kim Curtis, favorite ice cream. Alright, raspberry swirl. Yummy. That's about it. Oh, well, thank you so much. So how can, how can we find you in, in, in cyberspace and, and, and, you know, we we'd love if anybody has any follow up questions, this, this is a great episode and we really appreciate you. So if you have just let us know how we can find you online. So sure online it's, I'm on the case, Western reserve law school's website. And my email is, Lem 28 case study to you. Thank you so much, Laura. We really appreciate it. And thank you about listens are going to find some great insight and we really appreciate your time. Thank you for inviting me. My pleasure.